Noticing the lack of comments by priests on our blog, I feel it’s my job to try to fill it in. Obviously I can’t speak for all priests. Yet I’m trying to keep in mind the hundreds of stories I have read, listened to and witnessed personally. The invitation is still valid for priests involved in romantic stories to write their own opinion. Please do write your opinion! Obviously we promise to keep their names, place etc….in secrecy.
The red line means when the priest should stop and reflect and take a decision: either to continue to delve into the relationship or else stop the relationship for good. We are never going to take that decision for anybody. It’s the couple which has to decide which way to go forward, preferrably by mutual consent.
First: The first and most dangerous assumptions by priests is that once sex didn’t take place, then everything is ok and one can continue walking in the same direction!
This is due first and foremost for lack of formation during the priests’ training period. Relationships start once people get to know each other. From the priests’ way of life, relationships start earlier because the priest, being a public person, is exposing his thoughts, beliefs etc…in the public during the homilies delivered each and every Sunday. Most people feel that the priest is not simply filling up the time during the ceremony but exposing who he really is. In fact most people approach the priest to talk about personal challenges after listening to his homilies.
Second: most of the priests live all alone nowadays. Whether they are aware of it or not, most of them are craving for a little bit of attention from a person who does not visit the parish simply to be served. Once a person gives them some attention, they are hooked to that person because most people in the parish visit the pastor simply because there is a need to be filled (like signing papers etc..). Most people assume that priests do not feel lonely because they are all the time accompanied by crowds. Obviously crowds might make somebody feel more lonely!
Third: priests are trained to work all the time. Most of them have to visit families because of various reasons or meet people in the office. When a priest starts to speak more about himself than about God, most probably he is already beyond the red line! This is the time when connections turn into a deep relationship.
Fourth: the fact that most people talk about personal issues, they never meet in a public place but rather in a closed office or room which might give rise to inappropriate relationship. Priests having a personal issue with lack of sex, touch or affection might feel it’s the appropriate moment (because of secrecy) to take advantage of the opposite sex!
Fifth: priests who are struggling with pornography, alcohol abuse, excessive travelling abroad etc… should seek professional help and not keep everything inside. It might come out in an explosive manner. Just to make it easier to understand one can try to keep a ball under the water for some time. One can release it. It comes up with a massive force! That’s what happens when a person keeps some issues well hidden. One day they might come out in unexpected manner. The damage is immense.
Sixth: the priest although he preaches to the others, might be passing through a period of lack of faith. He has to talk to somebody who can guide him through the delicate phase. It happens to everybody. There is nothing to be ashamed of. No one can grow up in faith without challenges! The fact that he might not feel ok with the church or with faith, could be a trigger to go away and leave active priesthood! This another unknown path where many priests pass through.
Seventh: problems with his own faith community or with his superiors might again trigger his temptation to leave everything behind and start a new life. Not everybody finds himself comfortably guiding a local faith community. Some of the priests I spoke to, where placed in parishes which were a complete mix-match with the formation and character of the priest. A clear example is transferring a young priest to a parish where the average age of the parishioners was over 60! But this does not concern just the age bracket, because one could be in a so called ‘young’ parish, yet the parishioners seem to be living in another era!
Eight: this one, is again misunderstood. There is nothing wrong with the priest nor with the woman. They simply fall in love. Some love relationships start when nobody is looking for love. Chemistry has it’s own unique way of attracting people together! Besides, love is not a switch to press on and off at will! There are various examples of people who went to another part of the world in order to forget a loved person….yet in the end they realised that it was simply useless. One cannot stop real love from growing and flowing nicely around! Some readers did point out that God is love after all, so why do we resist such manifestation of his presence?
Ninth: most priests took their vow or promise of celibacy when they were so young. Now they do realise the meaning and the consequence of such a special way of life. Can they be held responsible for something which took place without their full awareness or maturity? Not all people can be classified as adults although having 18 years of age or more. People mature on various levels and at different time levels. Emotional level is a very tricky one! To determine one’s emotional true age might be very challenging!!
Readers, you are invited to comment and add to our observations! May God Bless you all!
Wow, Fr. Daniel, you really nailed it! I’ve been dealing with all 9 of these items, only my priest doesn’t have to decide to leave the priesthood as the bishop decided it for him with permanent suspension due to an incident of bad conduct. I was never in a parish where he was a pastor, though. The problems stem from going into the seminary at 21 with no experience in the real world, and seminary formation, or lack thereof, during the period of turmoil post-Vatican II, when everything was being questioned and traditional devotions were mocked. The one thing I noticed that was really disturbing is that in all the time we spent together, he never, not once, offered to pray together. The spiritual life just wasn’t there with him any longer.
Brokenheart (AKA: Southern Belle)~
I am sorry to read your priest is still in exile. There are not enough words to describe the fall-out from *gaslighting* these men do *but* your priest has been quite democratic with shutting-out his other friends including clergy with whom he formerly worked~ if that can be any consolation.
The “no praying” with you speaks volumes. I am hoping he will be able to put his life-as-a-priest in a healthy place so that he is able to live a full life. Imagine the emotional upheaval he must be experiencing given his dismissal?
Belle, does he clearly know you would like a *future* with him?
Praying for you, Sister~
Marshmallow Yankee
Hi Brokenheart.
I wouldn’t worry about your priest not offering to pray together. I was with my priest for a long time and spent countless hours with him. He never once offered to pray together either. Looking back I wonder if it had something to do with what Father Daniel said about him wanting to be with someone who didn’t want to be served by the church. It’s like he didn’t want to mix business wirh pleasure, so to speak.
Hello Cat~
While I agree with you regarding the “no prayer zone” in the context of your very personal relationship with your late priest, my note to Brokenheart was to underscore the serious and devastating brokenness of her priest. A brokenness that~ without doubt~ impacted hundreds of Catholic lives.
Brokenheart’s priest was active in an addiction that not only cost him priesthood and its faculties, but it is an addiction that is contrary to the dignity of the human person, including his own dignity. And, lack-of-prayer was surely a clear symptom of his downward spiral as opposed to personalizing a relationship.
Relationships to priests~ as we witness them here~ are rarely healthy and mutually-accomplished nor are they lived-out as God has divined love between a man and a woman; someone is nearly always shorted, and in here, it is the woman. That said, we owe it to one another to give the gift of clarity and not one muddied with romance.
Be Blessed~
Marshmallow
Dear Brokenheart,
Like you had eluded to in an earlier comment, I am realizing how interesting it is that even though your relationship with your priest and my relationship with my priest are very very different, there are still many things we have in common. Perhaps it’s because the way that you and I each feel about our priests is the same.
And whether you realize it or not, your comments have helped a tiny bit to ease the pain of missing my priest. Thank you for that.
You are in my prayers.
Cat, I appreciate your understanding of what we have gone through, falling in love with a priest and knowing they fell in love with us. Your priest was mature, mine is an adolescent psycho-sexually, and he ran away because he couldn’t deal with these strange new feelings. I pray that he has been maturing and will return to me. It is as Nikki said: “the heart wants what the heart wants.” There is no denying it. Each day I surrender to God my love for him and continue to pray for him, day and night, that he will receive the grace he needs to turn away from anger and bitterness toward the church and the bishop, for his healing from his addictive sin, for the ability to know in his heart that God created him to receive and give love.
As Marshmallow said in another post a few weeks ago, I believe there is a good chance he will return to me. And yes, he knows that I love him because I told him so. And he knows I will never hurt him. So I keep praying for him. Fr. Daniel had it 100% right when he said we don’t have OFF buttons for our hearts, and we don’t have DELETE keys either that allow us to totally forget someone we love.
And Cat, I keep you in my prayers and everyone else on this blog. Sometimes real love hurts so bad, and we need God to help sooth us.
Brokenheart,
You’re wise to find it disturbing that he didn’t want to pray with you. The bond of prayer should be your greatest intimacy. If this is lacking what kind of union will you really have.
If any priest or man is not willing or capable to share his innermost feelings and beliefs , and what way is more connecting than through prayer, then how deep can a relationship really be or become ?
Prayer blesses any union , the one that truly loves us would want this to be the center of our relationship.
Beware of this prayer issue….my priest was (and is still) a predator and he prayed a lot with me. He made me pray a lot together with him. And at the same time he did all the worst that he could do. Don’t let you be led astray by this prayer facade…
Good point.
If our prayers are based on the word of God as opposed to man made ones we have a strong anchor and can better recognize false teachers.
Blessings
Wow…
Thank you again Fr. Daniel.
Very revealing.
You had mentioned previously about a priest being accustomed to being in control and losing control when his emotions come into play. This seems to be very true in these points, much is controlled for him in his training and environment, so he is not properly equipped to deal with anything outside the box so to speak.
Number 8 got me especially.
In my case he was sent thousands of miles away for a few months and returned (not to the same state) more conflicted than ever.
That’s when things really went into overdrive.
Ultimately he chose to stay after much inside influence, and a ton of guilt.
But as you have so graciously shared from your direct experience, not everything can be explained away “just because “ that’s the way it should be.
The heart wants what the heart wants…and to deny that will never bring true peace and enlightenment…in my opinion.
Bless you always for sharing your invaluable perspective!
“The heart wants what the heart wants…and to deny that will never bring true peace and enlightenment.” I like that Nikki… fully agree!
Thank you for sharing this Fr Daniel.
Nikki~
Such a wise, kind heart you have; I am always moved by your special savvy.
Thank you for another inspiring comment.
God Bless You~
Marshmallow
Fr Daniel, A Hearty Thank You!
“The Red Line For Priests”:
I found the essay compelling on nearly each point~ personally, number nine has given me
the opportunity to look at mandated celibacy, and its attendant seminary process, with a clean lens.
Admittedly, I have had an impatient spirit as it relates to the formation of priesthood, but your premise, “Can they be held responsible for something that took place without their full aware-
ness or maturity?” is remarkable; *held responsible* was an eye-opener. It is an especially interesting note, Fr Daniel, since your premise here is often the basis for granting ecclesiastical annulments~ a process that could be offered to priests when they have hit the *fault line* of ministry.
Despite all the “Red Line” symptoms, what kind of thought reform takes place for these men~ challenged by any of the nine~ to remain unhappy, addicted, lonely, lead double lives and often drag a woman through it or continue to just *muddle* through ministry? Why are they reluctant to address these issues in a way that would bring them peace and joy? Why isn’t the inherent need for intimate relationship, love and adult human sexuality enough for a challenged priest to examine celibacy and embrace it as an unnatural state? And Francis~ why isn’t he more resolute about the down-side of celibacy (He has stated that the Church has had centuries of positive experiences from a celibate clergy!)? Enormous subject with seemingly little hope for change.
The formatting used was appreciated, and your presentation without the emotion (that I am very guilty of submitting) made it easy to digest; your essays are no *small* investment of time!
Many Thanks~
Marshmallow
That’s right,,Nikki!!! ”the heart wants what the heart wants”..Denying it will not bring any peace. You will never forget the person you are in love with,,,,even if the priest decides to move far away from his love. These priests are triained if they keep away from the love of their life..they will forget them and vice versa…but,,that does not work. Father Daniel ,,sure wrote a great article here. It all goes to show how the church brainwashes these priests badly. I can’t wait until next year’s october synod 2019!!! They will already speak about celibacy this year at the youth synod in october…so,,we are getting real close to making celibacy optional…again,,like it used to be. Blessings to all!!!!
My parish priest would smile and say hello and many times I felt he really liked me. He’d look at me from the pulpit for a long time and I would look back. I would say we were somewhat flirting. This back and forth has been going on for a year. He’d come up to meet me outside after Mass and and smile. Anyway, he was so charming I was having strong feelings for him and thought about him all the time. I felt he liked me a lot too. The problem was we never really talked, just hello and a comment or two. We only saw each other at church. I really didn’t know him and he didn’t know me. We did not have a relationship. He has only been at our church for one year. He is the pastor. He didn’t even know my name. He didn’t have my phone number. He never asked. I got the feeling that he did not want to be seen talking to a woman alone for fear of scandal. I did get some dirty looks from people and wondered if they thought I was involved with this priest. Yet, Sunday about four weeks ago I went to him for communion in the hand. He put most of his hand in mine and kept it there as he placed the host in my hand. I thought this was strange but very endearing and I have to say exciting. I was happy and yet very concerned about this because it was at communion and wondered what it meant. I called his office and asked to talk to him. He was given my home telephone number and called me back. I told him what I felt happened at communion and he said ” I don’t know what you thought or what you think happened” (something to this effect) but I never did that.” So he denied the whole thing. I thought he would know that it was me, the women he was flirting with in church; I didn’t think he was giving communion t to anyone else like that. He told me to think of it as the hand of God in my hand. I told him that maybe I did imagine all of it and I was actually, beginning to doubt that it had happened. I told him I was sorry, also, that I was embarrassed. He told me not to feel embarrassed. I thanked him for calling me and said good-bye. I am devastated now. I don’t know what to do. I really don’t know how to face him. Actually, since he didn’t know my name or phone number when we were flirting at church, I wonder if he knew it was me, on the phone. What do you think about all of this? Sorry this is so long.
Dear Ann,
It’s the usual game by priests…first they play and then they’ll deny it. The more he denies, the more I do believe that something happened (from his part). Beware, because whilst you see relationships from the normal point of view. he just wants to play but there is no commitment and he is ready to run away once the word gets out. He’ll blame you. Remember that you’re the one who has to face the parishioners. You’ll have to face the consequences of being called a priest’s lover. He might change parish very easily and will hide again.
Readers, please give your input. May God Bless you all!
There is an article today on TheCatholicThing.org about the need to do away with mandatory celibacy, based on the homosexual crisis in the US Church and the Cardinal McCarrick accusations of molesting seminarians over decades. The article is written by a conservative, David Carlin, who says he was formerly opposed to optional celibacy, but because the priesthood in the USA is becoming known as a homosexual priesthood, he now thinks optional celibacy might help clean things up.
What is amazing is that the owner/editor of The Catholic Thing is Dr. Robert Royal, part of the Papal Posse on Raymond Arroyo’s program The World Over on EWTN. If Dr. Royal is featuring an article on optional celibacy on his very conservative Catholic website, I am wondering if this is going to be heard favorably on The World Over. That would be amazing if optional celibacy is discussed favorably on EWTN.
We are now starting to have the discussion in the Catholic world….YAY!
You see even the harshest critics will understand our principles! This encourages us to go on. Thanks for sharing such important information.
Brokenheart~
The gay priests among the American clergy is strange; I somewhat understand how *straight* priests would take pause over this.
But yet I believe gay men (who aren’t the flamboyant type) have qualities that make them terrific priests. The Church, though, is not kind to them either~ during the sex scandal of 2002, the Vatican tried to pin raping kids on the gay priests. When, in fact, from interviews conducted with perpetrators, the perps considered themselves straight.
Your report is very interesting about conservative priests taking a second look at celibacy; I hope it advances. Thanks for sharing.
The Church is just plain *crazy mad* over adult human sexuality.
Marshmallow
PS~ Yes, I still believe your priest will come back to you. I have much more sympathy for him because of his addiction. Let’s pray he stumbles upon someone who will influence him, or that he just tires of this burden and gets the treatment he needs. That is the key. I have wondered with the prevalence now of free online porn, just how many priests delve into that seedy world. But will not consider an authentic relationship.
Belle~ Have you dropped him any notes lately? What about sending him info from Hazelden? World-renowned treatment center for addictions. They have a large patient profile of Roman Catholic priests 🙂 My father-in-law (who is Catholic) went there and was stymied by the enormous pool of addicted priests. He said that nearly every single one was in complete denial, too. There because they were *forced*.
A good weekend to everyone; enjoy summer for those of you in it!
@Fr. Daniel:
I still can’t figure out what’s the point and the aim of these priests in doing these kinds of tricks and strategies…is it maybe to enhance their self-esteem?
Don’t try to understand! It’s a sick mind!
This seems to me to be a lame attempt at some sort of intimacy, that he obviously feels he can’t follow through…pitiful really.
Another example of dysfunctional behaviour due in part at least to living a life of deprivation.
Hold your head high, he has to live with the denial, not you !
Hi Ann~
Many, many priests use this “flirt from the sanctuary” strategy, and he is the one who should be embarrassed. My guess is he knew very well who you are, and the host/hand
flirting. There just does not seem to be the kind of time to do that to every parishioner coming to him for the Eucharist.
Fr Daniel responded quite succinctly, but it is good to remember that many of these priests are not honest about emotions, and the risk women take when the priest does not protect her.
I am sorry you have been hurt; these relationship wounds are the worst. Just go to Mass, and make it a point to wave and smile at him *from a distance* and keep walking. Protect your pride and your reputation.
He’s an irresponsible, flirtatious dip.
Marshmallow
PS~ Ann, this eye-flirting seems to be a common ploy among American priests.
“He told me to think of it as the hand of God in my hand.” Enough said; the priest who said this is full of himself. He clearly knew what he was doing to say something so preposterous.
It is good to remember that when a new relationship *or* even a casual association starts with mind games and disrespect~ that’s one big red flag. Whether it is a priest or not.
And coddling priests with aberrant behavior and *not* treating them as adults with adult consequences is a disservice to us, other loving women and the priest.
I wish I were able to give more support to women who love priests, but there is just not enough testimony to promote or extend hope to *most* women who love a priest. And, I believe many priests enter the seminary with pre-existing personality disorders or simply a manipulative personality. Here is an example:
I saw “red flags” in *my priest*~ he cheated in the seminary, he cheated enormously on some literary work after ordination, and he quarreled with many, many parishioners~ hundreds who left our parish because of him; leaving a parish that is still rebounding since his departure.
But, I always found an excuse.
~Marshmallow
Once a priest tried to convince a woman to have sex with him….telling her that it was God who was penetrating her!!! Priests with psychological/spiritual problems can twist around as much as they want to. The women are in a particular position and this is why it accounts to an abuse. They were forced to agree when they were so week to resist the priests’ advances! It’s like finding your enemy when he is in a vulnerable position.
I don’t figure out how any woman can believe that God penetrates her… I would be disgusted if a priest tells me something like that.
The best response to the priest saying stupid things like that or that his hand is the hand of God is to laugh directly in his face and treat him like a crazy person…
Yes in a normal situation one would be totally disgusted….yet things don’t work out like that in real life. The problem is that the priest would have already taken control of a vulnerable person…..and the woman by this time would be totally in love….plus the fact that the woman would have already agreed to some kind of direct or indirect romancing…so she feels that she is ‘in’.
Dear Fr. Daniel
Would you please send me a private email. Thank you
I’ve sent you a private email. Please check your spam folder too.
May God Bless you!
Rev Daniel and family
Nikki, thank you so much for your kind reply. I appreciate your input very much. I’m not sure if I should attend another parish. I’m in a fragile position right now. My phone call to him and his denial of what I said, happened this week. By-the-way, I felt for a long time that he may be in a mid-life situation. He is in his mid-to-late fifties.
Hi Ann,
Seems to me more that he is insensitive and fearful of intimacy.
That likely wouldn’t improve, so maybe consider this a blessing in disguise.
Can you imagine being with someone that you have to dig for affection!?!
Don’t let it be awkward and it won’t be.
Be you and if you return there remember who will be right beside you giving you strength.
His loss in so many ways.
Xx
Hi Nikki,
Thank you again for your wise words. I really don’t know him and I wanted to and I thought my reasons for wanting to were legitimate. I talked myself into being friendly with him and then, for me, it became more. I talked to my daughter tonight and she said to stay away from this parish. I am talking to her because I feel I’ll explode if I don’t. I can’t imagine what is going on in her head because she sees me as a very strict Catholic. It’s hard, I’m going to try and keep my distance from him.
Yes you need to talk to someone. This is one of the goals of this blog. Let off some steam. You know you’re going to be judged here. We don’t know the age of your daughter but surely sharing on this level will bring a closer relationship. One of the things which our sons and daughters hate is to treat them like small children! You can see them as grown ups now!
Very strict Catholic or liberal….everyone has a heart. What most priests don’t realise is that there are several layers of needs in EVERY human being. One mentions food and shelter as the most basic needs (physiological – Maslow’s hierarchy of needs). But then there is the need to love and to be loved in return. In our life we meet people who seem to satisfy this level of needs…even if ‘happy’ married or being a priest. Obviously how we can solve this dilemma depends on various factors.
May God Bless you all!
Ann~
Please don’t leave your parish, at least not yet~ it’s your parish, not his. It will not be easy being heartbroken. But, he was the one dishonest to you, and that’s on him!
Might I add: If he resumes the eye game, please think about the phone call, and try to harness your feelings. And then, that might be the time to think about leaving. Or if your worship is tarnished, then I would leave. That’s what I did. And my priest was *abruptly* transferred.
Remember, *The Evil One* comes in all kinds, shapes and colors. Take care, these are horrible wounds without a doubt. The Lord is watching, and we are all here rooting for you.
Be Blessed~
Marshmallow
Our parish is ‘online’. Although we are not 100% substitute to the parish with geographical boundaries, yet in certain areas we are the only ones who can provide spiritual food especially in critical times like that of falling in love with a priest!
@Brokenheart,
Thanks for the article lead.
He’s hit the nail on the head in my view.
We all have to see this for what it really is, whether one has a romantic investment or not.
Couldn’t be clearer, everything being expose is a result of defying God’s Word in the first place.
Should be interesting to say the least.
Amen to our “online “ ministry.
And Fr. Daniel I especially loved how you wrote’ need to be loved AND to love’.
I think we write all the time how priests “ need to be loved “, but rarely mention that they too need to love !
There really is no better feeling than loving someone, what an empty existence without it.
I know their “party line” is they love everyone, but we are all aware that is not in the same league.
@Ann,
You must share a great bond with your daughter.
You’ve done nothing to be ashamed of.
You reacted to an advancement from a man who happens to be a priest.
He recoiled out of fear, not your doing!
Ann, my guess is that he is probably feeling more embarrassed than you and is likely to be reflecting over his behaviour – whether he knew it was you or not. I’m sorry if this sounds harsh or judgemental, but don’t be surprised if he now starts behaving distantly towards you while he contemplates his feelings of denial. The best advice I can give you is to get out now while you can. What he did does sound like the pre-warning signs…
Anyone, but especially any clergy, who assign God-like qualities to themselves is truly a toxic person. “Hand of God, sex with God”; oh my goodness~ enormous spiritual abuse. Icky.
The priest who used the Eucharist~ the very body of Christ~ as a vessel to flirt! OMG!
I am retracting my earlier suggestion of staying at this parish: Ann, it is probably best you leave. That priest has blasphemed God, the Eucharist, dragging you into his sin, *and* he lied about your character. I would be afraid for what he might do next…
Probably, “reel you in, and cast you out.” Then the roller coaster begins, and he will know he *has you*; so horribly difficult and painful to get off.
He has probably done this his entire career~ a strategy that takes some practice to pull-off. He sounds very familiar to my priest experience~ the arrogance of it!
God Be With You.
Marshmallow
Dear Fr. Daniel, Nikki, Marshmallow, Brokenheart, Mary2 and Christina, I hope I haven’t left anyone out.
I appreciate all of your comments. In a way, I feel bad because up until the phone call, I was okay with the way things were. I feel guilty in that I probably encouraged him, that he knew I liked him, and that he liked me. I really did not know what he was thinking and what all of our interactions were about. Maybe he was just being friendly and I took it the wrong way. That could be. That is what my daughter said, that he was just being friendly.
I don’t think he meant that his hand was the hand of God. I think he was trying to make me feel better about the whole situation. My daughter says that a lot of what I feel is all in my head. She’s probably right. My daughter is older and married and has three children, all in their teens. When I told her what the priest had done she thought that maybe he did that to everyone. I told her it would take forever to give communion. Then I told her that I called the priest and she shook her head in disbelief. I told her what the priest said, that he didn’t do (his hand in mine). She agreed with him. She said maybe he forgot; he gives communion to a thousand people! She didn’t see anything wrong with what he did. She just kept telling me to stay away. I have another daughter who is younger, married with two children, both teenagers. She told me, at one time, when I was upset, that I should leave the parish and not be involved with him.
I know that all of you are saying that I have done nothing wrong, but I do feel I had something to do with all of this; that I encouraged him, I did flirt with him although, I didn’t think so at the time. I hope you understand that I feel badly about what has happened and what has been said about him. He is a priest and I don’t want to judge him, I have to look at the whole picture. I pray all the time to discern God’s will. This is my main focus, really.
I really wanted to go to a different parish yesterday and I was just about on my way, when I had a different thought to go back to my old parish. I did that and went to communion to this priest. It was all fine. After the Mass was over I stayed in church and prayed for a while. When I decided to leave most of the people were gone; I got into my car and left.
I am taking into consideration all that all of you have said and with my daughter’s opinions and my own discernment, I hope I come to the right decision.
Thank you, Fr. Daniel and all of you who have been so kind and supportive of me. I truly appreciate your concern for me. God bless all of you.
We’re not judging anyone at all….yet there is a common thread going on. I’ve listened to many people recounting the priest’s regular abuse scheme. They all try to blame the women. “It’s all in your head…you’re the devil”. Imagine going to court and a fresh wave of doubt arises….well the problem is that priests are treated with too much respect. We can’t accept the fact that they have abused countless children and women because if we accept that, society will collapse. If we cannot trust priests, then to whom shall we give our trust? In this sense, we try to ‘protect’ our pillars of society by blaming the women and calling her names!
This morning I’ve just heard a court sentence in Australia of an Archbishop. At least it proves that it’s not in our mind, it’s not mud throwing against the church…it is the terrifying truth! Yes in some cases priests behaved worse than well known criminals. The longer we accept this fact, the better.
And they’re much better protected than most criminals.
Ann, you have to believe you have done nothing wrong.
I realize it must be difficult for your daughter to grasp , because he is a priest, but I’m convinced this was his form of intimacy, and he’s fine a runnner.
Continue just to let it be , keep your distance and your dignity.
Don’t be concerned, he knows the truth.
Blessings.
Yes, Fr Daniel~ the raping of tens of thousands of children, world-wide, with dishonesty among clergy up the entire food chain of the Roman Catholic Church to hide *and* support this horrific disease of epic proportion.
I just read, “Sacrilege” by Leon Podles~ a former FBI agent in the USA~ who recounts the brutal rape and anal sodomizing of children across America and the psychological pain these children take with them; many of whom turn to addiction and *suicide*. The amount of cover-up, deceit, lies, dishonesty and perjury by The Church at the expense of children as young as one year old is beyond words.
Circles of priests who passed children along to abuse in animalistic ritual is nauseating; I had to stop reading parts of the book because of the sexual violence. And all the time, these clergy were celebrating Mass and protected by scores of Bishops, Archbishops and TWO POPES!
Further nauseating, many of these American priest perpetrators are now being housed in lovely retirement settings or monasteries at thousands of dollars monthly *plus* their full pensions paid for by the Faithful~
Just again, in the USA, 150 priests in Pennsylvania have been under Grand Jury investigation the past two years for raping HUNDREDS of children in that state and protected by church hierarchy. The investigation was to be unsealed last week. And guess what? The judge was influenced by *an unnamed source* to leave the Grand Jury results sealed. So, for now, justice will not be served. Again.
Falling in love with a priest is so trivial compared to the suffering of our innocent children.
Sweet Jesus, Mary and Joseph, when will it end?
Marshmallow
The Attorney General of Pennsylvania is turning up the heat along side some of the best attorneys in the US representing heavy hitting news outlets.
The report is being described as seismic, and these scum will be exposed on every level.
Obviously it can’t all be blamed on repressed sexual desires resulting from forced celibacy, but the percentage of offences and cover ups are proportionally much higher with clergy than any others. Many of these are victims of opportunity.
So much for celibacy “working well “ for hundreds of years.
I would like to apologize for my use of the word scum, even though many of these current revelations I consider deplorable, using that word has bothered me.
I suppose I got a little off course.
Thanks.
Hi Nikki. I can relate to what your saying. I have looked back at some of the comments that I made and cringed, thinking “That’s not me – what was I thinking?”
It’s difficult to express objectively your dismay with some of the things that are happening in the world today, when you are still feeling the sting of heartbreak in your personal life.
Don’t worry Nikki. I have always admired you because of your no nonsense but compassionate comments.
May God bless you Nikki.
(And anyway, in my opinion “scum” was an appropriate word in this situation). 😁
Nikki~
The rape culture that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has not only hidden, but has promoted and perpetuated are actions that *scum* adequately describes.
This rape culture is not a hetero- or homosexual problem; it is a highly-flawed clerical system that has long flourished within the Catholic Church. A Church, we can deduce, that has little authentic pro-life posture, does not value the safety of its children and other vulnerable, defies both the law and justice system and is willing to spend untold billions (of the Faithful’s alms) to preserve its *right* to define and maintain a clergy that only the hierarchy approves.
Much of these scandals would not only be uncovered and justice served, but they would be prevented *if* priests were accountable to its assigned parish, and the local parishes supervised, routinely evaluated (as most employers do) and fired its abhorrent priest(s)!
This ongoing sex scandal is deplorable! And it is the Faithful who can put a stop to this.
Rise-up, folks, and don’t be partisan to the silence of this child-raping culture!
~Marshmallow
Oh, Ann…
Such a tender note, thank you, but it is self-deprecating! Your priest is a grown man as you are a grown woman. And, you did not lead him on, you were a responsible, caring woman only looking for clarification.
On any forum, it is often difficult to offer suggestions or advice because we are looking from a distance and without all the players, nuances etc. But, I think it is safe to say, that on this blog a well-defined pattern of priests *playing* women has been established, and leading women on in varying degrees *always* to fit the priest’s needs is a common theme. Your priest fits the profile.
Be careful, Ann. You are vulnerable, and please don’t fall into the trap of the *over-indulgence* that is afforded Catholic clergy. Your priest is sitting back for now, but time will reveal the real him. If the phone chat with you was genuine, he will comport himself like a priest while he is celebrating Mass and in his interactions with you; there will be no more eye engagements, communion play nor any activity that could be misleading . If not, well, you will have your answer about his *integrity*.
My guess is, your priest will return to his flirting with you, and start the cycle over.
Prayers For You, Ann~
Marshmallow
I completely agree with Marshmallow on all counts and points. Ann, this priest is trouble. Sadly, none of his brother’s will put him in check. Even though they may see his behavior and recognize it. He may not even recognize his own need for human affection, companionship, and relationship.
But, don’t let that allow you to feel sorry for him. There is a difference between empathy and sympathy. Empathy is the safer route.
Praying for you Ann and this priest.
Marshmallow, about the raping of “children” by priests, most of it here in the USA was NOT pedophilia (pre-pubescent children) but a different term which I can’t spell, think it’s epiphelia. The study that the US Conference of Catholic Bishops commissioned to be conducted by John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York found that close to 90% of the sexual abuse by priests was of TEENAGE boys, thus they identified it as a homosexual problem. It’s still very offensive though. And many of the teen boys who were raped, fondled, etc., ended up having serious emotional and psychological disorders. There are no excuses for these priests, and the Cardinal McCarrick habit of molesting seminarians who were under his power made me throw up. And he’s not the only cardinal/bishop. There are scores of them who are actual practicing homosexuals who use their authority to have sex with seminarians, young priests, other young men working in chanceries and parishes. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg so far. The rot is oozing out and it will be much more putrid as the media exposes it.
Hi Brokenheart~
Thank you for the reply.
Yes, I am familiar with the John Jay study; an important piece of that was not so much steeped in clinical homosexuality per se, but it was the *stunted* psycho-social/emotional status of the priest perpetrators. The study showed how not only did most of the rapist priests identify as heterosexual, but it was their own *teen/adolescent* level of maturity that attracted them to and had them identifying with adolescent/teen boys *or* girls. Many of them had issues with their mothers *and* almost none of these priests displayed effeminate mannerisms.
Jay report indicated that is another piece that explains how the priests were able to attract the boys; had the priests not been *manly* the kids would have never been baited~ based strictly on effeminacy that repulses adolescent boys.
Their approaches were very similar: Indulging in activities of teens, ply the kids with money, alcohol and in some cases pot, and then keep it all a secret by telling the youth it was God-ordained, normal exploration and numerous other spiritual thought reform. Very little fondling took place; most every rape was aggravated sexual assault and often on church property including the confessional. And, group sex; passing the kids around to other priests and other adult men and some *for money*. The widespread cover-up and transfers led by the hierarchy; I cannot wrap my head around any of it.
I did not mean to imply pedophilia, but I did mean to emphatically say the rape of *children*. Whether they are pre-pubescent or post-pubescent is moot; very few have escaped life-long scars. All perpetrators need prison time including priests who should also be laicized.
What is difficult to understand is McCarrick and the seminarians. How do grown young men at the peak of their physical stamina manage to wind up in bed with an old man? Especially since most of these encounters were a group of young men with the Archbishop, a classic homosexual staying at a hotel or cottage; where there was always one bed short. A little odd.
Now another scandal returning to the scene; a bishop who served in both Wyoming and Kansas. Conclusive evidence announced Tuesday by National Catholic Reporter that sealed his guilt.
This has truly fractured my love and devotion to Catholicism. Aberrant priests are one thing, but the *powers* covering rape of children is unfathomable. Loving a priest is trivial to all this.
My apology for the length, but it calls for first, our outrage; then, the psyche of a young male who gravitates toward what is supposed to be a celibate vocation. Alarming as well.
~Marshmallow
The Holy Father’s Prayer Intention For July:
“That priests, who experience fatigue and loneliness in their pastoral work, may find help and comfort in their intimacy with the Lord and in their friendship with their brother priests.”
+
Happy Independence Day to all my American Sisters! May the Lord watch over our nation as it suffers this perilous Administration: The children it has incarcerated to internment camps, its many other crimes against humanity~ the division that our President has created among Americans, our neighbors and allies. We must stop this threat to our democracy that is scandalizing each of us and the world balance.
~Marshmallow
That’s nice….but still no mention how the love and support of a partner (like God speaks of ) can ease a priest’s daily burden and bring joy to his life.
Precisely, Nikki! The Holy Father is seemingly of the belief that *priestly brotherhood* is the panacea for loneliness (and the many other maladies we know exist) in the celibate world of Catholic clergy. Might I add: Francis also claims “hundreds of years of a successful celibate priesthood.”
I posted this with “tongue-in-cheek.”
Be Blessed!
Marshmallow
The Red Line for Priests…absolutely excellent ! Thank you for creating this page and being open to writing about this. Some of us, have no place to go, no one to share this experience with.
Thanks for your nice comments. This encourages us to continue our walk of education. We need to educate more people about clandestine relationships between priests and women. Those in authority would like to keep it as a secret. We have to use the internet to spread our message.
May God Bless you all!
Fr. Daniel, please send me a private email. There is something I would like to ask you. Grazie!
I’ve sent you a private email. Please check your spam folder too. May God bless you!
Father Daniel, I know you didn’t get involved with your now wife until after you left, but did you have concerns about the celibacy rule even before you met her?
I am curious as to whether you gave it much thought before then. Also, was it something that priests discuss or did you find that for most it wasn’t something they were concerned about. I am talking about good priests who were committed to their priesthood, priests with high moral standards.
Also, do you know personally of any priests who fell in love and are struggling. Perhaps some of your colleagues??
I guess I’m trying to get a feel for how prevalent this is among “good” priests.
In my personal case I always insisted that a woman cannot make a priest change his mind about priesthood. It wasn’t an ‘external’ temptation. But it’s rather the lack of cooperation and other sabotages from his companions plus other silly challenges which make a priest think twice about working as a priest.
Interesting note, Fr Daniel.
I have read dozens of books on priests leaving The Church, and while a few cite their love for a woman and a marriage, the vast number of Diocesan priests spoke in length about digressing from the theology of The Church and in accordance to their own conscience, they were no longer able to preach and hear confessions aligned to the Roman Catholic Church.
I laud you, Fr Daniel, that as an Order priest, you had the strength and perseverance to break away from the shackles of that which oppressed your ministering….
The Holy Spirit was calling you to a world-wide ministry, and as others write, your online parishioners are so grateful to you and your family for sharing their time with us.
God Bless You, Your Wife & Family, Fr Daniel!
Thank you Father Daniel. Bless you for sharing your experience, insight and first hand knowledge with us. The Red Line for Priests article was particularly enlightening.
I appreciate that if we can’t get other priests to comment here, that you fill the gap by helping us to better understand where priests are coming from. ❤
The only problem is that mine is just one opinion. It would have been much better getting opinions from other priests!
Yes, Father Daniel, I would love to hear the opinions of other priests as well.
First of all, I would like to point out that I am definitely not trying to be disrespectful toward anyone, and I would certainly never try to discourage anyone from commenting here. I am fully prepared that I may once again be attacked for my opinion, but here it goes anyway;
We seem to have veered far from the conversation that your latest article should invoke.
When you wrote the article Red Line for Priests, it seemed to me like a terrific opportunity for some other priests to join in and comment on some of the points that they can relate to. I thought to myself, “This is it – this will start other priests commenting”.
I was very pleased with the comments made to help Ann in her struggles as well. I was on the edge of my seat waiting for a priest to be so inspired by your article, that they would jump in with some advice for Ann.
My observation is that once “the raping of children” took over the conversation, all hope for any priests to comment has vanished. I can’t imagine how we can expect any priest to jump into this conversation as it stands now.
I also noticed that the number of people commenting has dwindled since the conversation went in that direction. I myself am not even going to go there because I don’t feel like I am educated enough on the topic to comment on it, so rather than risk providing inaccurate information, I choose to stay silent on that particular topic.
I know it is an extremely important topic and I am not denying that it is something that needs to be addressed. In fact, it is a cause that I am continuing to research.
I would just like people to consider whether this particular article, or this forum for that matter, is the best place for the fight and the conversation against the child abuse scandals?
Thanks again for the excellent article Father Daniel. It was very thought provoking.
You are a blessing.
Hi Cat,
I , not unlike you , have never been hurt or abused by a priest, only loved.
Unfortunately this can’t be said for numerous women on this blog.
Many have been abused and used sexually and emotionally.
The former and current abuse scandals are an extreme extension of this and any priest with any kind of integrity would agree and recognize this.
It’s ugly for sure and I have grown increasingly frustrated with how many people and clergy are unaware of the heights and lengths this reaches. NIMBY doesn’t cut it anymore.
Few priests have ever commented since its inception, as far as I know.
Again a further extension of complacency.
In my opinion the lack of comments is another example that many if not most priests don’t want to rock their boat.
That certainly doesn’t mean they shouldn’t.
Blessings
You bring up some excellent points Nikki. Thank you. Blessings to you as well.
In Reply To Cat:
I am the culprit who digressed and brought into this blog the enormous scandal of violence against our children and other vulnerables, and I take full responsibility for the digression and committing the sin of off-topic transparency.
That said, I have no regret, especially if it reaches blog spectators (especially priests) who are *in- the-know* of sexual crimes of their brother priests and will now be prompted to intervene.
Silence is the name-of-the-clergy-game; silence and secrecy. And that has created untold numbers of forever-damaged children, women and men~ emptying our parishes and diminishing the Holy Orders. The *rape culture* of The Church demands unveiling even at the risk of a short side-lining of the priest-woman tragedies we consistently read here. Fr Daniel seemingly agreed since he is the editor and publisher of this blog.
As a closing note, I was also the person who suggested to Fr Daniel to offer a blog opportunity specific to priests.
Be Blessed~
Marshmallow
Edit To My Comment Above:
Actually, it was Fr Daniel, who on Tuesday, 3 July at 6:29a initiated the clergy child-raping; I merely responded in-kind as did others.
Marshmallow
I agree that this needs to reach out further than just this blog. Honestly, the adult human mind has about a six minute window of paying attention and staying to task or subject.
Have you thought about taking this into a broader more public arena? Like Facebook? Yes there will be plenty of attack, but you will be getting the silent readers. You will create a movement. We don’t have to respond or defend every comment. The point would be to get the information out there. I know very few people who actually take the time to read a blog.
What are you thoughts?
Sincerely,
B
It’s up to the readers to take the issue to facebook. Personally I cannot engage on Facebook as it would take more time….something I cannot spare for the time being.
B~
I like your idea of creating a *movement*, and Facebook would certainly be the platform for a fast and far-reach to present a married Catholic priesthood. The *conservative* Catholic movement is not large, but it is mobilized and highly vociferous; a group that would surely balk at *any* change.
A few thoughts come to mind: 1) There really needs to be a coalition of priests who support a change to mandated celibacy otherwise we are fighting a battle that might not exist. 2) The support of seminary drop-outs would be further support. 3) Sisters and Nuns would bring a very unique perspective *and* who also know how to work *within the system*. 4) In the USA, there are groups of former priests who promote married priesthood; they would be a tremen-dous resource as well.
Then, the call for married priesthood needs to show how that will improve the Catholic clerical state *and* bring/return people to the Catholic Church~ a healthy priesthood, ie an environ- ment that will not be attractive to predatory homo- or heterosexual men, but a healthy blend of both married and single men who will complement one another as well as the Faithful in all life stations. Pope Francis is promoting a world-wide posture of “Evangelization”, ie to bring others to Christ, but my guess is that it is also about filling its coffers. The current tarnish on priests and the Catholic Church would be greatly improved if the Church can offer a healthier, well-integrated clergy *and* safe parishes shepherded by honest Bishops via married priesthood.
Love, romance and broken-hearts of women will only bleed contempt from the curia and pre-Vatican II conservative clergy and parishioners, “you shouldn’t be playing with priests, ladies” and shut down any thought for a married priesthood.
Currently active priests are the most important but missing ingredient in this cause. Perhaps there is just not all that great a demand for priests to relinquish celibacy.
~Marshmallow
I will take some time to think about this. I may be willing to begin the discussion on facebook.
I have found many news sites begin broaching the subject, but are quickly buckled under by diversion tactics. And the importance of our movement is drowned out by these tactics. Which is of course a tactic of the evil one.
1. Clear, concise, consistent, biblical and ecclesia laws and definitions must be adhered to. 2. The love stories can not be made perverse or pornographic in nature, that digresses people from the love story. It also digresses from what Holy Spirit has defined love as, and what God has constituted marriage as. What loving intimacy should be.
3. Interviews and stories of successful married clergy must be shared. Both from the priest himself and his spouse. We must focus on the positive of this relationship, not just the negative.
4. The children in these relationships are valuable; we must respect all life!! No matter how it comes into being. Period. End of discussion. We are a Catholic and Holy people!
This is just a list of things I would want to adhere to as I approach the subject more publicly, please let me know what else you would add??
Love is vast and confusing. It can be defined and expressed in various ways. Someone who has had childhood trauma, or repeated trauma as an adult when dealing with love and love relationships often will have successive difficulty with the “next one”. .. If abuse was an issue in the past it takes a lot of time and healing to sort out what is genuine and not an imprint from the abuse. Some of our priests have gone through this or are going through this, they genuinely have been called to Christ. Celibacy has no bearing on their ability to achieve holiness. None. Some believe in God’s divine plan. Great. But they are putting man’s constraints and rules on that plan.
Dear B,
This site has been a great consolation for me at times when I desperately needed it. I sincerely appreciate all that Father Daniel has done for us by allowing us this platform to discuss the challenges of relationships with a priest.
In a few timely, and well chosen words, you have addressed something that I have been trying for years to address.
“I have found many news sites begin broaching the subject, but are quickly buckled under by diversion tactics. And the importance of our movement is drowned out by these tactics.”
I have seen many, many stories here that start off as a women telling of her love for a priest and the challenges she is facing. It quickly turns into a priest bashing session, pointing out a plethora of sins of priests and all of the negative aspects of how the priesthood is viewed in the world. The blog is quickly taken over by several long winded humiliating, cringe-worthy rants.
ALL priests are quickly lumped with the users, abusers, pedophiles and sexual deviants. The conversation disintegrates to “homo-erotic behaviour”, and “raping of tens of thousands of children”. This plants distasteful images of priests involved in these acts into the minds of readers, either provoking them into displays of emotion or prompting them to leave the blog because they are absolutely disgusted. In my opinion this is nothing but a tactic to humiliate ALL priests as some twisted way of getting revenge on the troll’s particular priest.
May God bless you for bringing this into the light for us. You don’t know how many people you may have helped.
I will pray that you bring about the necessary changes to not only bring this to a wider audience by taking it to Facebook, but also that by writing about this, you will bring the necessary changes to this blog too.
Blessings and love to you. XXOO Good luck.
Dear B,
Your list of things you want to adhere to looks great. This part is implied in your list but it is so important that I think it deserves clarification.
Make sure that you protect the priests so that they will feel secure and safe enough to comment. You will likely never get a priest to comment on a site where there is a chance they will be attacked and humiliated. Maintain zero tolerance for any negative or judgmental comments that try to steer the conversation from the original topic. Those type of comments do nothing to help either the women or the priests, so just do not post them. Also, you will get a lot more women sharing their stories if they are confident that they can get support without having to worry about defending the man they love.
I sincerely hope it all works out for you. You are in my prayers.
Thank you B for your comments. ❤ Keep up the good work. I know you will go far to advance this cause. I will remember your words, and remember you in my prayers. Thank you also for providing support to those of us who need it most. Good luck and goodbye.
To all those ladies out there who love their priest, i will pray for you also.Take care. 😇
Cat,
If nothing else , priest’s are greatly protected on all levels beginning with day to day essentials and onward.
They’re big boys inspite of occasional examples of immaturity.
Real men don’t need to be coddled, and I would guess they may even welcome the challenges associated with the circumstances of the complex world we live in.
Keeping those in their bubble world isn’t doing justice to themselves or anyone else.
The truth is never going to alienate anyone who has nothing to hide.
I should also add, I’m speaking from someone who has nothing but affection for her priest , but knows well of the darker side of this complex world , and I’m no troll.
No one to my knowledge has ever “lumped ALL priests “ into one category.
This blog represents the varied and personal experiences from all walks of life.
So needless to say not all experiences are going to appease everyone.
That’s what makes this blog so universally attractive to so many.
Blessings
Ahh Nikki, “real men don’t need to be coddled” “they’re big boys” “keeping those in their bubble world”
I don’t believe Cat was implying to do any of these things.
A man’s emotions are just as tremulous as a woman’s, he just expresses it differently. Some of these men need to be coddled, some are not big boys, and some have no clue how to live outside of their bubble world. Is this an excuse? NO of course not. Is this a reason to come in slinging two pistols aimed at their private parts? NO, absolutely not.
You want their love story, you want to hear from them?
We have to stay focused.
Hi B
I’m well aware of men’s emotions.
However eluding that any “negative “statements are prohibited because priests require “protection “ is unnecessary.
In referencing the ones who have used and abused some women in our stories here , they are in no position deserving of coddling or enabling.
If mandatory celibacy is ever to be repealed it may very well come down to the many revelations of dysfunctional behaviour. So yes it has to be revealed and discussed.
As far as I’m concerned mentioning “trolls “ passively is to “whom it may concern” , is a little harsh , and I think Cat is quite able to speak for herself.
“Slinging at their private parts “?
I’ve always speak with affection for my man, but I’m able discern good and bad behaviour.
To get results everything needs to be on the table , whether we all agree or not. No need for my way or the highway or any lectures on opinions.
@B~
There is some history here to this blog that is not positive, and your comments had me take pause.
My thought is that perhaps with the blessing of our generous blog publisher, Fr Daniel,
there should be some *strategic* dialogue as to the not just the purpose of this blog, but
to establish its vision and mission.
With a vision statement (what we are determined to accomplish) and the pairing of a mission statement (how we are going to accomplish the vision) we will not just maintain civility and establish boundaries for respectful disagreement, but we will effect those
positions that will forward our mutual goal of non-mandated celibacy and married clergy.
As it stands, the stories that come to this blog are nearly all (with very little exception) the chronicles of disrespected and abused women; thus, the blog is saturated by a very
dark and undesirable side of priesthood with the victims having few resources to lead them to healing, and where we are not doing much better in providing assistance with a healthy plan for them to heal and move forward. The *operative* word is “healthy”.
And while it is absolutely essential that we provide our sisters with love and support, there
have often been two divergent schools of thought/advice as to how the victim should respond to these unsettling and life-changing *attractions*.
Thus, the blog has taken on the personality of a support group~ a support group that also lacks a consistent, clear and healthy direction to provide women who have experienced the
soul-crushing from a priest. The priest-lady attractions that come here are complicated, and for us to truly help them, we as commentators need to have solidarity among us.
All this said, I humbly suggest to Fr Daniel, “(Fr?) B” and all commenters:
1) We develop a vision and mission statement for the blog specific to non-mandated celibacy and advancing married priesthood.
2) And, we create a *support group* posture to respond to women who have been victimized by priests; a posture of solidarity that reflects a healthy, moral and transparent response system according to God’s will and within the world of avowed celibate clergy.
3) That we all pray for The Lord’s help in creating a blog that will effect meaningful change in the lives of women and The Church’s position on mandated celibacy and establish a global married clergy open to *all* men who have been called to priesthood.
Be Blessed and wishing all a wonderful weekend~
~Marshmallow
PS~ I am sorry for the length of this; it is not sent as a “rant”, I just need to learn *condense*.
Nikki, for the record, my comments were not directed at you. if you go back and read my comments, you will see that in every instance, when I made a comment directed to you, I used your name to address you as a sign of the respect that I have for your opinions and comments.
Again, this is just my opinion but if you take the time to research it’s meaning, the word “troll” is no more offensive than any of the other slang terms used today, for example “gaslighting” or “ghosting” or “OMG” (in my opinion not exactly a term Catholics should be using). If you look up the online definition of an internet troll you will see why I used that particular word. This term explains EXACTLY what B had said about when someone uses inflammatory or digressive comments to provoke emotions.
As A once said, when you don’t agree with someone’s opinion it is best to just look at the name at the top (and bottom in some cases) of the comment and don’t read it if it is someone you don’t usually agree with. I did that for a long time, and then there were comments directed specifically toward me that I felt like were an attempt to pull me into an argument. I ignored those too. Soon I felt like every time I made a comment, no matter who it was directed to, there was some attempt at diversion from the topic I was discussing and comments were directed specifically toward me, and all were negative towards priests because I have made it perfectly clear what my opinion is on that. I wasn’t able to ignore them anymore and certainly wasn’t able to respond properly because there is no reasoning with someone who thinks they know everything about everything.
Of the 83 comments here, 23 were from the same person. I now feel as though I can’t say anything without being condemned for my opinion and drawn into an argument through many long winded rants and self replies.
The trial of my ex-husband starts in just over a week and I will have to spend that entire time defending myself and my priest. I should not have to be attacked on here and feel as though I have to defend priests here as well. This blog is now more stressful than it is helpful so I am saying goodbye.
I want to thank you for everything Nikki as I found much comfort in your comments and felt you were a great support to me. You are very wise.
As always, blessings to you Nikki.
Cat
Thanks for saying you weren’t intending to offend me.
Our stories aren’t a lot different.
Mine didn’t end in violence, but i know very well what’s its like to be with someone controlling.
When we meet the one who changes that dynamic, priest or not, it’s not difficult to understand why people fall in love.
Btw , the same can be said for our priests.
I agree some people seem to have an agenda different from ours, new ones seem to appear all time.
We can say our view and then move on from theirs.
Both our relationships were based in love, not all have had this experience.
Thanks for sharing, I’m happy you did.
You don’t need anyone who hasn’t shared your experiences speaking for you.
Love , love , love….cherish and hold his love in your heart..it will all work itself out.
Let the record show: Any response to the sordid, disrespectful and abusive stories that come onto this blog are from my personal experience to a priest to whom I was attracted~ deeply loving him as he with me. Essentially, he wanted to keep me a secret; a relationship that was not free to love authentically as God intended. I ended it. A priest who loves a woman takes a sabbatical and *freely* experiences the relationship in transparency and faithfulness. If he is unable to do that, he ends the relationship honorably and moves forward in his life as an avowed celibate; he does not keep a foot in each lane. Hurtful, yes; but it is the *truth*, and I will promote nothing short of this.
That said, I *will not* encourage any woman to build hope or invest in a relationship that is mired in lies, deceit, disrespect, abuse or secrecy. Whether we like it or not.
~Marshmallow
@Marshmallow,
Good points, agree.
We can’t put ourselves in precarious positions then claim to be victims when it doesn’t work out.
Some people will only get away with what we allow, I don’t necessarily perceive that as completely predator/victim…we all have to be accountable for behaviours we are willing to tolerate.
Mandatory celibacy is an unnatural state , and I’ll say it again, it can manifest itself in some very dysfunctional if not ugly ways.
IMO, this is precisely why it is never demanded in the Bible.
Bottom line , its overdue that the Rcc catches up.
Cat~
RE: Your Comments Of Wednesday, 11 July 2018; 3:42p, 5: 38p.
Blogs are a forum for divergent views to which each commenter is entitled to express one’s own opinion(s) as long as it is the truth, that other commenters are properly cited, and there is no hatred spewed nor name-calling.
You and I hold polar opposite positions regarding the aberrant (and too often abhorrent) behavior of our celibate clergy~ you being far more tolerant. I respect that, until you inflame and stalk the views of others (as in mine for the past year) and demand censorship; both actions that dispel the *responsible* truth.
That said, you might be better-served to offer your own blog for women who love priests (no matter how poorly they are treated including being kept in secret).
And, please do not call me a “troll”; my name is Marshmallow.
Thank You~
Marshmallow
PS~ I have taken full responsibility for replying to Fr Daniel’s *initiating* comment regarding clergy-raping of our children. My apology that a pandemic tragedy that has robbed countless lives and inflicted by our priesthood~ YET offends your sensibilities or any others for that matter.
Thank you , Fr Daniel, for publishing this digression; I have said my piece.
@Marshmallow, No delicate sensibilities have been damaged. The topics that are brought up all are important and yes, a great injustice. Some of these injustices we need to ask God and St. Michael to pluck them out of our mother church. Like pulling a weed up along with it’s roots, in a very brisk and rough manner.
However, in this particular forum, the one concerning priests being in love and women who love them; the sex abuse of children/teens scandals is a diversion tactic. The two are some what related, but not really.
These are grown men, Yes, BUT these are also grown women. They are not children. They each respectively know when one or the other is making a sexual or romantic overture.
I don’t believe Cat called anyone directly a “troll”. But, as you know their are people of this nature on the internet. I have found your writing informative, supportive, and do hope to continue to hear from you.
I would like to say that for many of the women who come here, it’s because we’ve been treated badly, manipulated and abused. And while I’m sure when we first embarked on our relationships with our priest, we were hoping for something good. It just didn’t turn out that way. Some women on this blog have been blessed to have a loving, caring priest. But the majority of us have been left with deep wounds and have come in search of answers to why? And why me? I don’t believe the women who share their bad experiences with priests are doing it to disparage all priests. I believe it’s because they’re hurting. We come here unanimously because we can’t go anywhere else. It is the one place we can share our true pain. Please don’t begrudge is our opportunity to get the hurt and pain off our chest.
To my shame, I was so preoccupied with what the priest I was having an affair with was doing at the altar, I forgot to focus on the Mass, to focus on Christ. I shamelessly carried on with this priest in the sanctuary, before the Blessed Sacrament. And it wasn’t until I started to notice the inconsistencies, his controlling behaviour, his jealousy that I was able to end the relationship. How I had been so preoccupied with this priest I failed to focus on what I was going to Mass for, Christ.
In truth, I hate this priest now. Once, ending the relationship I couldn’t bring myself to go to Mass or Adoration for nearly a year I was so ashamed of myself. I felt unworthy. I didn’t want to go anywhere we had been, and that included church, Mass and Adoration. Looking back I see all the red flags, but the biggest one should have been that he had no shame, no hesitations about doing anything inside the church. I’m not putting all the blame on him, I should have stopped it. But I thought I was in love. He said all the right things, did all the right things. In the end, he was jealous, bitter, controlling and so manipulative. I hate that I fell for him. I found out a year after ending it that he’s with another woman. It doesn’t surprise me anymore.
I have finally starting going back to Mass but I feel I am unworthy of being there. He isn’t a priest at my parish, so I don’t worry about that. Just that I don’t belong. That I don’t deserve the Eucharist. This is what I struggle with daily.
Dear No one from nowhere,
Well, as we grow in maturity we realise that we are sinners. This does not discourage us from reaching out to the Eucharist. On the other hand it encourages us to participate more because it’s Christ who works wonders! It’s Christ who keeps His church going (not ‘good’ priests)! Christ has depicted himself as a doctor. When do you call your doctor? When you’re feeling sick….the same goes for Christ.
Please remember that Christ has already paid for all sins…it’s up to us now to feel the effect of his forgiveness in our hearts. That’s why the present pope speaks a lot about mercy. You have to experience mercy in order to give it to others.
You’ll be in my prayers! Please note that your sins are never bigger than God’s mercy. So what are you afraid of? May God Bless you!
In writing this you have repented, so you’re forgiven in Our Redeemers eyes.
You should be so proud you were able to recognize this relationship was comprising your values, and then leave.
Most of us have had a Mr Wrong for us, but with the grace of God, there is always the hope of Mr Right.
Blessings
@No one from nowhere. I’m sorry for your pain and can completely relate to what you wrote in your first paragraph.
Good for you for going back to Church, I admire you for that. You are worthy and have just as much right to be there as anyone else, don’t ever forget that.
I can’t go to Church anymore because through the experience I had with my priest, I’ve lost all faith and respect for the Catholic Church. The only faith I cling to is that I do still believe in God.
I just feel that my priest should show some accountability for the pain that he has caused and continues to this day, but he really doesn’t care. Instead, he prefers to enjoy his prestigious lifestyle surrounded by women throwing themselves at him. What red blooded man wouldn’t I guess.
I have no respect for him at all, and honestly don’t know how he sleeps at night knowing how much pain he has caused!
I miss going to Church but I can’t tolerate the hypocrisy.
Well everybody understands your pain…and your thirst for justice and honesty. Although the blog may not be the appropriate channel, one has to grow in the prayer mode. I can understand your detachment from the church. Yet, in the long run, Christ himself has called for ministry sinful people. He was of the idea of founding the first 12. They weren’t the best available. They didn’t have a clean sheet. The did perform well during His life.
There is just for one reason (through the power of faith, NOT reasoning) why He chose the 12: He is the One who runs the show notwithstanding the many shortcomings of his clergy! Our God is the God of the impossible who calls back the dead ones, walks on water, gives sight to the blind etc….
Let’s pray so that our faith may be restored!
Hi Christina,
So sorry you’re still having some difficulty.
When I was at my most confused , beginning with questions as to why priests aren’t allowed to love and marry, I turned to God’s source the Holy Bible.
Not only did I discover that there is no Biblical basis for mandatory celibacy, but that it is actually anti-scriptural.
This for me was the start of searching for many more answers , all which I’m prompted to seek out and ultimately find in God’s word.
This has given me a completely new outlook on everything, and I’m eternally grateful.
God’s word is the truth and it really can set of free!
Blessings
Xx
Dear No one from No where,
I am very happy to hear that you are back at Mass and adoration.
You did not mention Reconciliation, but I am assuming that your strong foundation and love for Christ has taken you to reconciliation. I hope and will pray that you can or have.
You are right in thinking that you attend Mass and spend time with the Lord in Adoration FOR Christ. And for Christ alone. The priest should have no baring on that relationship. I am proud that you are not going to allow this man’s behavior to change that. You are truely becoming a woman of valor.
No one from No where…You are someone, you are from somewhere, and you are valuable. Jeremiah 29:11; Jeremiah 31:3 gosh sister read all of Jeremiah ❤
When you talked about "carrying on" with this priest. You mentioned specific places. The Sanctuary and before the Blessed sacrament. Do you mean you were preoccupied with the feelings and emotions? Do you mean you were flirtatious? Or do you mean actual physical contact? ~ you really don't have to share, if you don't want to~
I will explain. I find it curious that the priest had the availability to be physical in these places. I certainly know of no Sanctuary or Sacristy for that matter that would allow for that kind of privacy. I also know of no adoration chapel when open that does not have a regular influx of people coming and going making "privacy" difficult. As for the confessional (which you did not mention) in many places has moved to being done face to face, some priests have even converted their "family/baby cry room" into the confessional, so that their is a clear glass window that looks out of the the confessional out into the body of the church). With all that being said:
THIS makes HIS behavior more disheartening.
Because from my perspective:
I would never jeopardize my beloved's soul or reputation in this manner.
I would never deliberately commit sacrilege to prove to my beloved that I love them.
I would want and do want my beloved's eyes on Christ.
I will pray for your healing. I will pray that you will never allow the preoccupation of finding a companion/husband push out your relationship with Christ. I will pray for this priest's salvation.
I fear this will never stop. Until the woman who are being abused start making a loud noise together~!
This will never change, if the Priest's in LOVE and want TO MARRY don't make a loud noise~!
Hello B-
When I first met this priest, I had gone to this priest for confession a few times. Once the relationship began, I refused to go to him for confession. Although, he did offer many times. I would go outside my parish for confession, I didn’t want anyone to know. I confessed many times.
As for Adoration, I would met him outside his home parish. He would not wear his collar, but be in regular clothes. The few times we met he would squeeze my hand or touch my arm nothing more than that.
But if I would meet him outside his home parish and it was at a church, he would have me meet him there to “show me around”. He had me meet him 4-5 times. He had someone from the rectory open the doors to the sanctuary. I guess they knew him because he would fill in at different parishes if they needed him? And we’d have the sanctuary to ourselves. I’d look around, and we’d end up before the tabernacle. We’d sit there. Pray, talk and he’d grab my hand. The last time he hugged me, and kissed me. When we met outside his own parish he was always in regular clothes.
That’s my shame. That I was stupid enough to believe he was being genuine in wanting to meet me and pray. Shame that I looked forward to being in this priest’s presence and not of our Lord’s. I wasn’t focused, I was preoccupied, I was flirtatious.
I’m so angry at myself at how naive I was, how thoughtless I was. When I look back I should have never met him at those places. Why wouldn’t he take me somewhere normal? I guess because he knew no one would see us? I thought it was special and really he was just hiding what we were doing.
I often wonder why he would do those things in the sanctuary, before the tabernacle. I was caught in the moment…if he truly loved me why do those things without hesitation before such a sacred, holy place. That’s why it took me so long to come back to church. I felt so unworthy at what I allowed to occur, what I didn’t stop.
I don’t attend any church in his diocese anymore. I don’t want to run the risk of seeing him. And now that I know he’s with another woman, it would be that much worse. And I don’t want to be any place he took me. I don’t want to be thinking about him there when I should be focused on what truly matters. And that’s Christ.
Thank you Daniel and B for your kind words and prayers. I will indeed read Jeremiah.
Daniel, thank you for this blog. It has been a blessing, you are a blessing.
Christina, I am sadden and full of sorrow for your pain and hurt. I think God must understand your stepping away from the church. Especially, when an abuse such as one committed against you has occurred. Our God is loving and merciful, I have every assurance you are with him whether you are in church or not.
For those of us who may be interested, the Grand Jury report in Pennsylvania will be made public, soon.
Many times things have to be shaken up to be put back into its rightful place.
As hideous as this will inevitably be, everything is connected, and in a back door way may ultimately force changes in the rcc.
Like it or not many do live in their bubble world , and it’s very likely this is about to change for many. The sins are piling high , change is necessary if not inevitable.
Well, it’s out , and it’s deplorable.
At least 9/10 comments on all news publications attribute mandatory celibacy as a major contributor to this evil.
I’m definitely not making light of any of these obscene revelations, but they also serve as a great source for promoting married priesthood.
I believe this newest unveiling will have a major impact in many ways on the rcc.